Everything on Nothing
Welcome to the podcast where everything is connected and nothing really matters. Hosted by Mickey, Christian, and Jacki
Everything on Nothing
Everything on Indigo
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Who was Indigo’s PR agent?
That’s the question.
And answering it obviously means we have to discuss Isaac Newton, ancient Persia, India, British colonialism, Gandhi, Nazis, blue jeans, birds trying to get laid, Pluto, Prince, and some deeply cursed crayons.
We get into:
- Aristotle and the original rainbow.
- Persian scholars adding colors to the conversation.
- Indigo: the plant that isn’t blue.
- British India and the indigo trade.
- Gandhi, courts, and fucking with the system.
- BASF, synthetic indigo, and blue jeans.
- Nazis, forced labor, and German industry.
- Isaac Newton and his magic seven-color rainbow.
- Roy G. Biv and indigo’s big break.
- Carl Linnaeus and horny birds.
- Pluto catching a stray.
- Crayons that smell like mother’s tomb.
Also: Prince, Seven Nation Army, color theory, history, and the question of whether indigo actually belongs in the rainbow.
So.
Who was Indigo’s PR agent?
Listen to the episode and decide for yourself.
The poet laureate of medicine Oliver Sachs once wrote, and bear with me, this is a bit of a long quote. So one sunny Saturday in 1964, I developed a pharmacological launch pad consisting of a base of amphetamine for general arousal, LSD for hallucinogenic intensity, and a touch of cannabis for a little for a little added delirium. About 20 minutes after taking this, I faced a white wall and exclaimed, I want to see indigo now. Now and then, as if thrown by a giant paintbrush, there appeared a huge, trembling, pear-shaped blob of the purest indigo. Luminous, numinous, it filled me with rapture. It was the color of heaven. Yeah, that's the short version of the quote.
SPEAKER_04I was like, I was waiting for the rest of it.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, I understand. It's amazing that there's a rest of it.
SPEAKER_04The rest of it's great, too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh it goes on and on. And uh basically, in order to get the complete quote, I went ahead and bought the book. It should be delivered tomorrow so Jackie can read it and tell me about it.
SPEAKER_04I will tell you this, it will be on hold until I am done with Dungeon Crawler Carl series. So just FYI. But I'm busting through it real fast, it'll only be a couple weeks.
SPEAKER_05It's so funny. I said I was going to start that and then I immediately threw on uh three body problem.
SPEAKER_04I've heard such good things about that.
SPEAKER_05It's I was listening to the audiobook, it's real good. Uh it's a sci-fi ass sci-fi though. Get ready for people to talk about stuff. It's not a space opera where they're like, the Moldavians are over there. It's like you there's a while where I'm like, I have no idea what are there aliens even in this?
SPEAKER_04I I'm reading Dungeon Crawler Carl with my eyeballs, but I hear that the uh audiobook is just incredible, like so incredible. They hired the guy who's narrating the book to play one of the characters in the television show that they're um one of the female characters that they're um when they make it into a show with Seth McFarlane.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Everything on Nothing, where everything is connected and nothing really matters. I am your guide, Mickey. And if you ask me a question, I will answer it thoroughly. Assisting me in this endeavor is my producer and life mate, uh, returning from her adventures in music. It is Jackie. Hello. And the graphical genius who is the two parts blue to my one part red, it is Christian.
SPEAKER_05Holler at your boy.
SPEAKER_01Uh we take questions and dig in very deep to make sure we answer it as correctly and completely as possible. And today's question on the map is who is who was Indigo's public relations agent?
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01Before we dig in, uh many, many thanks to Struber Durrell or Strawberry Darrell uh for giving us his track Yet Surf to be used as our theme and reminding me that music is mathematical because it is important to remember life is math. Math shows us the vibrations and vibes are what they are serving up at Dear Sandy in Portland, Oregon. Uh, Dear Sandy is the place Haley Jagger once said, uh, we love this bar, and this bar loves you. Nessa and Misha are wonderful killer bartenders, great service, incredible cocktails, in love with this team and their constant caring nature. Thanks for being the bar we all needed. Kiss emoji, heart emoji. Uh so if you are in the Portland area and you have the opportunity, please visit Dear Sandy. Uh, I hopefully, unless you're a complete asshole, but if you're listening to this uh podcast, you're probably like if you've lasted this long into the intro of this episode, you're probably gonna enjoy Dear Sandy.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh and a big, big, huge thank you to the boss man Zach Bennett for editing and his guidance. Uh, we'll eventually set up a subscription uh so that we can make money for those that want to support the show and probably eventually get around to doing merch so that we can make money. Um, and also giving us some guidance on getting into Hollywood contracts so we can turn this into a primetime television show one day, hopefully. Uh, in the meantime, you can show your support by listening to Zach Bennett's horror comedy podcast, Reasonably Afraid, with his partner, the King of King Rey Reyes.
SPEAKER_04I will also shout out that if you need any editing uh work done or merch made, to also reach out to Zach Bennett because he does that too, and he does it well.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Uh, if you like art and lollipops, you can join the Lollipops Guild and get a new and usually very unique flavor of lollipops sent right to your front door. Uh thevalleyofo.com has a lollipop subscription that brings two flavors a month, and uh it is accompanied by an art surprise. Uh Jackie, how do they sign up for that?
SPEAKER_04Um, they can just go to valleyofo.com and click on lollipops.
SPEAKER_01Okay. And right now it's a Patreon, but we're looking for other solutions.
SPEAKER_04Yes, it is a Patreon right now, but that is going to be short-lived because I don't get very much out of it aside from giving them a little bit of money every month. So I'm just looking for alternate solutions that don't tax my brain to keep track of who is subscribed and who is not.
SPEAKER_01Uh and uh we've highlighted various comedians well, just as a conversation piece to get started. Um throughout uh throughout the late uh 20 teens and uh well up until the pandemic, uh, we were both very fortunate and to have a little bit of extra money. And then when we went empty nester, we had a little bit of extra cash. And you Jackie was in a position to actually use a marketing uh budget to hire comedians. Uh, we love comedians because comedians are uh truth tellers basically, and just usually uh even in their most depressing times, they're pretty fun to hang out with. So uh we like to hang out with comedians, and we've had the opportunity of having comedians sitting in our living room testing out brand new jokes, uh, just because we were able to listen and give them good feedback, which was awesome. Uh, and we've also got to develop and um create our own comedy shows, including openers, uh um you know, uh featured players, and then uh uh you know, give time to a headliner and stuff. Uh one of the guys that uh Jackie hired to do oh, yeah, one of Jackie's dreams was to create a um award show, and she was able to create award, uh, an award show for her company, and then brought in a writer named Simon Nash to create uh some of the zingers and and the presenter bits, so they did not presenter bits and stuff like that. Uh and and uh as a reminder, Dan Harman won an Emmy. Uh before he won an Emmy for uh the that episode of Rick and Morty, he won an Emmy for writing a award show.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Um along with his pal Rob Schraub and Ben Schwartz. Yeah, yeah. I always forget he's involved.
SPEAKER_01Uh Simon recently popped up. It's great to see that he's back on the scene. And if you get the opportunity to witness Simon Nash uh doing comedy, it is pure unadulterated genius.
SPEAKER_04Wait a minute, what Simon's doing jokes again?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I saw a post uh where he was with uh Danielle, who is involved in she's one of the people with the case.
SPEAKER_05I saw that too, and I was like, did he get miss tagged? Like I was like, it's been years.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's because I know there's another Simon dude on the scene in Orlando right now because I keep because Logan keeps telling me about him. I'm like, Simon Nash? And he's like, No, some other dude. I'm like, God damn it's no.
SPEAKER_01I clicked and it went to the Simon Nash that we know, and I was like, I hope this is true. I hope it's not, if it's not, if you see Simon Nash, tell him to get back on stage because uh truly one of the greats.
SPEAKER_04Well, he's got the best brain, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, and it like he he basically takes whatever cube that he's dealing with and pulls it out and pulls it apart and inspects every little aspect, every angle, and then creates a comedy bit out of it. That I mean, it's not just hey, it makes you think, but the wordplay that he uses elicits a un solicited laugh out of you, like it just pulls laughs out of you, and then afterwards you're like, Wait, wait a second, dude. He actually said that thing, and oh my god, and it takes you down a rabbit hole of thought that uh makes it funnier in the long run, and you can hear the same bit over and over, and it's still funny uh you know, after after hearing it 30 or 40 times, which is a great, great sign. Uh so how you been, Christian?
SPEAKER_05Great. Uh the truck broke down because it's 20 years old. Uh but I have the part for it in it. But uh it so I I dropped off some friends at the airport uh last week, the middle of the week, Thursday, I think. And uh and so I drove, I go drove them to the airport and a couple times it started acting weird. Uh but when you have a 20-year-old truck, you're like, well, I'll deal with the weird when it gets worse, and I get back. And then we got to the airport and it just fucking died. Uh and I had to turn it back on like uh like on and off like 19 times. Finally, it like got going. I didn't even say bye. I was just like, I gotta go. Like I'm gonna like just see if this makes it, you know. And it made it all the way to I had like I could could have gone to my house and just grabbed my brother's van, but I drove all the way to work, so it's at work now, uh, which is more complicated than the other thing. But I I had a choice. I was like, I can either be maybe late to work or I can be very early to work and leave my. I was kind of thinking that maybe it would be like a oh, it'll cool down and then I can get out of the thing. And of course, I was like on my break, I was like, nope, not turning on. So that's where we're at. Luckily, we have this other vehicle, uh, and as payment, it doesn't have AC.
SPEAKER_04So oh, oh god.
SPEAKER_05That's the monkey's paw of that. Uh and I don't know if you do, yeah, for listeners, the earth is getting hotter for some reason. Nobody can figure out why we've prayed all we can to figure it out. But the Bible, the Bible's uh mysteries uh remain occluded to us.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's it's gotta be part of somebody's plan.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that's the thing, is that I don't worry about anything because it's part of a plan.
SPEAKER_04Well, wait a minute, let's deconstruct this. Who likes hot stuff?
SPEAKER_05Um well, I mean, is it food? The stuff is wide.
SPEAKER_03Stuff is a broad who likes flames. Oh no, who likes making people hot? Who likes burning people hot?
SPEAKER_05That guy.
SPEAKER_01But he just answers to the big boss who has the plan. Uh he's not gonna tell anyone what the plan is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh not gonna get like that that's oh that's where I fall apart with the whole the whole system that has arisen from that side of the world. Is a a plan is only so good if the everyone involved in the plan knows what the plan is. And then when you have like, yeah, it's cool on television when Danny Ocean has a plan within the plan, within the plan, and and you know, he's got Brad Pitt doing one thing and Matt Damon doing another, and and you know, uh uh you just it's it's all fun and games whenever you reveal it at the last five minutes, but you know, from I guess from an entertainment standpoint, if you said here's the plan, and then then enacted the plan, it would be kind of a boring show. But in real life, uh if if you said here's the plan, now everyone go enact the plan, everything comes to fruition the way you planned it to come to fruition, and plans are good when people know what the plan is. So, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm uh listen, you know, God, I'm in on the heist, but you gotta let me know. You gotta let me know, God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if there's a plan that I don't know about, I don't have a lot of trust in you, man. Respectfully, God, I'm out.
SPEAKER_05God's a loose cannon. God, give me your badge and your gun. It's all part of his plan.
SPEAKER_01Uh, and do you want to talk about what the lollipops are this month, Jackie? Or do you just want to make it a movie? Go ahead and sign up and find out.
SPEAKER_04We're recording in August. So the lollipops this month are uh moon water made with water that I charged underneath the full moon the other night, and that's gonna be raspberry flavored because the July full moon was called a raspberry moon, also called a buck moon, if I remember correctly. And my other flavor of lollipop in August is going to be holy water made with actual holy water from the Rhoda Wise House and Grotto in um Canton, Ohio, which was the site of a legitimate stigmata miracle where a lady bled from her hands and from her fucking orifices in her face. Uh, and I bought some holy water while I was there, so I'm gonna use it to make some grape-flavored lollipops because you know, communion wine and all that.
SPEAKER_01And you've consulted with some uh uh religious consultants on the the aspect of whether it's bad taste to to put holy water in lollipops.
SPEAKER_04I've had some pretty big discussions about this with people of various religious beliefs. Uh, I've talked to a few Catholic people that I know, and um, and then one of them even went and talked to her priest about it. And the consensus is that people get like salt blessed to use in cooking, so it's not any different than that. And I'm not like using a whole bottle of holy water, I'm just gonna sprinkle a little little little of it in and then just use filtered water for the rest. But they will be holy water lollipops.
SPEAKER_05I do imagine like a sort of multi uh ethnic, multinational council, like from uh how to stop whatever that long movie name was, Dr. Strange Love.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Just a bunch of people like arguing, just like this is not appropriate.
SPEAKER_04Like the the Council of Nicaea clearly states like the thing that surprised me is when I talked to Catholic people about it, they were surprisingly like blasé and like, oh yeah, no, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm like, well, can you just like make sure with someone who knows a lot?
SPEAKER_05They're big on eating stuff as part of their right, you know. Yeah, they're big on like tran what is it called? Transubstantiation, uh-huh. Which is that like is the that's like I think like the one of the big like splits. I think that's one of the big like Martin Luther was like, I don't know about this. I don't know if God can also be a piece of bread. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Now it's gonna be a lollipop.
SPEAKER_01So see the the the problem, like uh I know the big problem with that Martin Luther had was that it was a bunch of people that weren't consulting anybody and they weren't taking into they were basically just saying, Hey, uh this is a magic blanket, and if you wrap yourself in this magic blanket, you'll go to heaven. Skip all the other stuff that gets you in heaven, just wrap yourself in this blanket.
SPEAKER_05Or forgiveness.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, here's this helmet, here's this rock, here's the and basically like uh P. T. Barnum type people were just scraping along the ground and saying, Oh, yeah, this is magic. Buy this and you get into heaven. And it became a wholesale um uh industry of people selling tickets to heaven and Martin tricking God, as I like to call it.
SPEAKER_05Tricking God, as I like to call it, where you go, I'm a bad person, but uh I bought the thing. Yeah, I I got uh I got I found a workaround in your old little Bible there, God. Like, I don't think that's in the spirit of anything, of any faith or religion is like deceit. You know, it's like finding a way around the rules.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like Hitler at the very last moment going, uh Jesus, I accept you as my one true savior. Uh, I get into heaven now, right? Right?
SPEAKER_05Like, damn it, guys. There's nothing in the rules. There's nothing in the rules about genocides. We wrote this way way back. We wrote it before we knew people could be that bad. And so Hitler went to heaven on Airbud rules. Here's a hit. They changed it right after.
SPEAKER_01If you have like like I I when I was in the military, they sent out little tiny pocket Bibles and stuff. And what if that's your Bible that you go by? And like, is that acceptable for the rule book? Like, I don't want this to be an episode at all.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, just we bounce hard off the topic.
SPEAKER_01I'm just saying I don't even want to touch that, but I like it's literally if that's the set of rule books that I have that I'm operating by, and do I get into heaven? Or like, you know, poor Neanderthals are running around, they don't got a rule book, they're just bumping into like they they're murdering, they accidentally kill someone or they steal some food or whatever just to just to feed their family. Uh they go to hell. Like, is is hell nothing but a bunch of Neanderthals and lawyers?
SPEAKER_05Uh they they they go to the well, depending on which candid you look at, but in the inferno, he visits them. Uh, in the Twilight City of Dis, uh in hell, it's like a very it's very close to the top of hell. It's like for people that were born before, it's like basically like all the righteous Greeks and Romans and Neanderthals. They didn't, I don't think they had discovered Neanderthals yet, so I don't think that was in their uh worldview. But uh apparently at one point there, and this is out of the bigger Bible, uh, but there's an event called the Harrowing of Hell, and it's where Jesus, when he died on the cross, he actually went to hell and witnessed to the the the pagans and stuff. So basically that's a thing where it's like, okay, that's how we get like Socrates into heaven or whatever. Now that he's been in the other, if he's been in this like anteroom of hell forever, Jesus comes down, he's like, Here's all right, sorry we didn't tell you this from the jump, but here's how basically this works. He's like, Okay, I get it, cool. You're my lord and savior. Now Socrates goes to heaven.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05But that's not a I don't think that's a common belief. That's like not that's like a one of those book of Enoch things or whatever, where they it's like one of the gospels that wasn't accepted because there's only like five.
SPEAKER_01That's one of the problems I have is like there's enough rule books and and and other books out there, but who agree like there's differences and agreement on who which book like it's it's literally hey, uh this is how we're gonna handle immigrants, and whichever is more profitable is the which is the way I'm going to vote, instead of what is the righteous way to vote. It's more what is gonna get me better positioning. That's that's the rule book I'm choosing.
SPEAKER_05It's like a contest of who wrote the best Jesus fan fiction, like the best fan fiction about what happened to their friend when he died. And one guy's like, I think he went to hell and like saved all the righteous pagans. It's like that's dope, but that's also not gonna work with what kind of we're going with going forward. Yeah, that's really what it was. I think is that they were trying to stamp out like paganism, and so like the idea that you could be a pagan and still be saved, not anymore, mind.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05New rules, new management, you know, in the house.
SPEAKER_01I can see that. Like if if I'm a pagan now and you want me to be a Christian, and you're like, Well, your grandfather was crappy and he's and he's burning in hell, and it's like, well, he didn't know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I've always thought about this the turn of the the turn of the uh messiah era, where it's like you know, a generation back, oh grandpa's just in hell forever? Oh shit, let's see.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, grandpa was a decent fella, and he he would have known, he would have known, but you know, they told him to kill, so he killed.
SPEAKER_05He didn't go to bad hell, he just went to where the you don't get to sit under the light of God forever. It's just shady. He went to shady oaks, you know.
SPEAKER_04So you're saying that there's good and bad neighborhoods in hell.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like anywhere, you know.
SPEAKER_04What's the say that we're not in hell right now?
SPEAKER_05Gerrymandered. I can't I can't prove or disprove that.
SPEAKER_01Well, like Dante said, like there's the multiple circles and layers and stuff. Then like there has to, like, there has to be uh I mean I there doesn't have to be, I guess. It it just it's a matter of your belief system. If you believe that some people are worse than others, then uh you know, then you have to believe in a uh multi tiered hell. Uh but then that also equates to. To a multi-tiered heaven, so there's got to be like a VIP section. So no matter how good you think you are, did you donate a whole bunch of money and do good and feed the hungry and do this and clean feet? Yeah, yeah. You know, here's the checklist to get in. Here's a checklist to get into the super VIP. Uh, if not, then you know, you're just wandering around playing harps.
SPEAKER_05The uh the the the Dantean vision of hell is very funny because it's like very clearly like it's so of its time where it's like uh you're like, oh well, it's really more about like, okay, who goes to which circle for which sin, like how bad their sit their one big sin was, you know? And because some of some stuff I guess is just like, no, you're not going to heaven because you like stole from people your whole life or you were lustful or whatever. But the examples that it uses are like timely ancient Italian references. So the essentially like the Dante's Inferno is kind of like a fanfiction of like of his like shit list of his like little like what's the burn book from from Mean Girls. It's basically the burn book from Mean Girls, and it's like, well, I think that uh Antonino Vespucci and his whore lover are flying around in the wind created by King Minos or whatever in the first circle of lust, or like you know, this Michelangelo.
SPEAKER_00I think he's sleeping with other dudes, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's like it's like very, very like, and here's you know, Alla Dente Vespuccio friggin the third of Venezia, and he's like upside down in the lava, you know, river or whatever the hell. Like it's just like, and it's it's one of those books that you read it, and when you get to those, it's like half a page's footnotes explaining the context of like who this guy in the lake was. It's like at the time, like Dante was part of this party, political party, and the everyone in the lakes of fire, all the other political party, and you're like, Oh, Fox News has just existed forever.
SPEAKER_02Like, and Antonio, you make a good weed while but the you know the the the spaghetti is a little bit uh little bit. Maybe, maybe not third ring, but maybe maybe he'll only two ring.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the third circle of hell is making bad pasta. Uh but like it, I mean his vision of hell, like descriptively is why you're reading it. It's like a very it's a cool, it's cool. Dante Soferno is cool, despite the fact that like the writing in it and the characters in it and the whole swing of it is he's basically being like, Well, the Democrats, you know, like or whatever well, but the Republicans, you know, are actually in the lake of fire. So what do you think about that? Look at my book. Did you read my book where they where you go to hell? Or like your your contemporary?
SPEAKER_01All right. Uh so yeah, uh, let's uh I guess we've covered religion once before already.
SPEAKER_04Oh, we did, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01We did a deep dive on that one.
SPEAKER_04We didn't really go deep on hell though, so hell might be in the future.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we might have to do a deep dive on that whole concept. Uh, because I as I as far as I like, I know the the Jewish religion doesn't believe in a hell per se. And I don't ever remember like I remember someone telling me one time, oh, it's not even in the Bible.
SPEAKER_05And I'm like, okay, apparently, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I started reading it and I couldn't get past the bagats.
SPEAKER_05The bagats, there's so many bagats. You're not supposed to read it from the beginning, silly. That's the Jewish part. They didn't believe in the hell yet. Yeah, go to the New Testament. No, but there's really not a lot of hell in the Bible. That's true.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that I do enjoy about the Bible is that if you if you read through the bagats, you will see that indeed everything is connected. And there are you just have to remember which bagat you're on, which level of bagat you're on, because they circle back and tell all the stories of those most of those people just to say, hey, at some time in history, these fellas did something and they're all kind of tied in and related. So uh uh it's a historical book. We'll probably hit on some of that, some stuff.
SPEAKER_04So, in in in conclusion, if the house, the professor house burns down randomly one day, it's because I was making the holy water lollipops that day, and it was not okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, that was a detour from the lollipop plug.
SPEAKER_01Uh so indigo. Uh, I guess we could start with George A. Miller. Uh, we'll just set it up kind of like a checkoff Miller. Um but essentially Miller's law states that uh the human brain can hold the the short-term memory can hold seven items in the short-term memory. Uh and uh the Purple Prince uh song, seven, uh all seven, and we'll watch them fall. Um Seven Nation Army, Seven Nation Army. Uh, and uh so if you believe in white man history, uh Newton was playing around and went, oh, no one has ever thought this thought before, but there has to be some colors in the rainbow, uh, and was playing around with prisms, and he's like, Okay, I see them. And everyone at the time was like, Oh, that's because something is flawed in the glass. You can't at the time they were like, You can't make perfect glass, and there was someone that was working on making perfect glass prisms, and and uh Newton was like, nah, this guy's got it, and and your concept that the the glass is flawed in making this rainbow is insane. Uh, let me show you. So he took one prism to split it into a rainbow, took another prism and put it all the light back together and got a white light, and he's like, See, here we go. And uh he was like, There's there's five colors, and then he was like, But there's seven notes uh on the scale, so seven's pretty pretty cool, and he was kind of a mystical seven magic this and seven magic that, so he was like, I'm going to go with I'm he shoved in orange and shoved in indigo and said seven colors. Boom! And so Newton came up with Roy G. Biv. Um, and that's the short uh white boy history of of uh who was indigo's PR agent.
SPEAKER_05It was it was it was our our our old nemesis or perhaps mentor uh Sir Isaac Newton. I love the idea that so they were like, Oh, you can't make perfect glass because it always makes this really consistent color band. Like I love that of like the old times where it's like, yeah, man, I don't know, it's impurities in the glass that always make it go red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple in that exact order every time, no matter how like visibly clear and clean and imperfect or imperfect the the glass is like that's just very funny.
SPEAKER_01Um but if we if we take a step back, uh one one of the concepts that I like I believed ever since, but I actually kind of came up with words, someone might have may have said it before, but uh much like the earth, history is not flat. Uh history has uh it's not even so much as a pyramid because there's a lot of parallel thought on one side of the world or on the other side of the world. Um, everything is kind of uh back and forth. It depends on who's doing the marketing, who's doing the public relations, who's moving what data, uh, who's translating what into what. Um, but we go all the way, way back in before people were just wandering around and they're like, I don't have time to think. I've gotta hunt, I've gotta get food. I get food, I eat, I sleep, I gotta get up in the morning to get more food so I can keep living. I don't know if I would have survived that time frame. I don't know if there was ever uh I guess that's kind of sometimes what I I went through a period, but I knew that period was gonna end if I just got through it. But I don't see living an entire existence just getting up to eat and then being done. Um, but I guess if you've never been introduced to thought and thinking and questions, you know, TV, like yeah, that was it because that it took you that long to do it, and then you were tired because it was a lot.
SPEAKER_05Like it's like, all right, well, back to napping.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh well, you know what happens after you eat a big meal. Come on.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. I go right out. Like, I'm at the age where it's like I eat lunch, I I teach morning class, I come home, we eat lunch, and we're watching right now. We're on uh Legends of Tomorrow. We're doing another watch through that because it tickles my brain in a sci-fi fun kind of way. But um uh yeah, like 15 minutes after. Like if I if I stay vertical, I'm good. But as soon as I lean back and get a little comfort, I go right to sleep and take a little little tiny nap. And it doesn't help me, it doesn't affect the rest of my day. I it takes me a few minutes to get you know get the cobwebs loose and all that stuff, but uh I I could go with the nap or without the nap, and it doesn't impact the rest of my day. Uh but it's if I kind of like kind of like those baby dolls with weighted eyes, if you lay them down with eyes closed, if you sit them up, their eyes are wide open.
SPEAKER_05So it's like I'm a big fan of like if it if your body like goes to like a sleep mode of any kind, you must have needed it in some way. Like, I'm a big proponent of that. Because like no animal on the earth, like if all threats being eliminated, if it's just like it's like, yeah, I think I'm just gonna kind of I'm done. I've I'm I am now de-energized from patrolling the territory that I'm gonna take a nap now so that I'm rested for the next period of survival. Like, I don't know, that's just like listening to your body, right?
SPEAKER_07Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05I think you're supposed to sleep through digestion. Isn't that kind of like universal? I know like it's like uh you know, snakes. Snakes will eat like whatever big old thing, and then they're like, cool, I'm gonna nap for like four days. They're kind of extreme or extreme nappers.
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, snakes are definitely extreme, like in and everything, I would think. Yeah, they're very dramatic animals, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_05For the listeners out there, I don't think people are snakes. Except for your ex Christina.
SPEAKER_01No, I and then uh we created civilization to separate ourselves a little bit from the animal world, and along with civilization came the invention of money, and with the invention of money, uh came the invention of rich people and uh schools to basically you want to educate if you're rich, you want to educate your child so that they can stay rich so that they don't have to go back in the pit to work. And with that came uh school teachers and uh nerds that were smart enough to get into the schools but not rich enough to pay for it. So the way they paid for it was by having rich people pay to do their homework. And with that, uh we got a bunch of lazy people that not lazy people, but curious people that had time and money to sit around playing with things. And with those people playing with things, then they started asking questions. Um, and we got to Euclid and Aristotle in white man world. In Persian world, they were already digging deep into this question. In uh Asian world, they were you know well past this question.
SPEAKER_05But I was gonna say the Chinese seemed like they would have been like, hey, look at what the glass does. Check this out like way there.
SPEAKER_01But no one understood, no one took the time to understand their language, and they were so far out there.
SPEAKER_05That's true. Okay. I thought you were gonna throw as a bit you were gonna say, well, nobody understood Chinese. Like they literally nobody under they they yeah, China, I guess, was so isolated and their language was so different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but like people than like GRACA, but uh like Persia was right across a lake, essentially, or the Mediterranean, you know, right across the uh Mediterranean Sea, there's uh Persia and there's trade routes, and Persia had a lot of stuff going on, so uh you know there were some ideas exchanged. But before that, uh in White Man World, we had Euclid, who was the father of geometry, uh and dude created geometry, like he studied triangles, he studied circles, he understood math. Uh he invented large swaths of math. Uh, but his idea was that our eyes shot beams out uh to detect things, and that's where color came from.
SPEAKER_05A decent stab, a decent stab at the idea. Yeah, but it's it's not it's it's reversed, but like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And on the other side of the pulpit, you had uh Aristotle saying, nah, the sun be doing things.
SPEAKER_05Don't don't let those guys each other in a hallway. That's gonna go down.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so uh Euclid and Aristotle had debates over light. Um, Euclid argued, I believe it was Euclid arguing that the eyes shot out beams, and then uh Aristotle's like, no, the sun bounces the light and then goes into our eyes.
SPEAKER_05And interesting question to like not know the answer to. Oh, yeah, like definitively. Like, so like that was the argument of the day. Was like, no, you fool, it's beams. It was like, no, the beams are already there. Like, like, what uh these are like two men at like I would assume, like kind of the top of their game, right? Like, if we're talking about like Euclid and and uh what was the other Aristotle?
SPEAKER_01Aristotle, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like one of the guys arguing about this.
SPEAKER_01I is it Aristotle before Socrates or Socrates before Aristotle?
SPEAKER_05I'll find out.
SPEAKER_01I I know it's like Aristotle's like one of the big turning points of philosophy, and uh he's Socrates before Aristotle. Okay, so Aristotle's very deep into the socks Socratic method of getting to an answer, like ask questions and um just keep point upwards and look angry in babe dance. Uh the downside of the Socratic method is is when you ask a lot of questions, people get really annoyed and then they feed you poison and kill you. So um, you know, there is a downside to that. Um, but Aristotle's thought was that it was it was essentially one path. It's a mixture of black and white, gives you uh different colors, which from his point of view, it is it does make sense, and it kind of on a level is true.
SPEAKER_05It is like every it's almost in my philosophy, where it's like it's like I understand that there's there's there's white, which is like pure complete on, and there's black, which is like no color. It's like okay, all right, I see where you're going.
SPEAKER_01And see, in my brain philosophy, I believe that everything is binary, it's just you have to ask a lot of questions. It's not is it black, is it white, is it's it's is it white, yes or no? No, is it black, yes or no? Yeah, no, so it's something in between. So is it this? Yes or no? And it's it's not is it black or white? It's is it white? Yes or everything's a yes or no question, on or off, and binaries on or off. And if it's white and if it's not white and it's not black, it's gotta be something else. So then is it red? No, is it blue? No, is it ingo for this episode? Yes, yeah, and um, but yeah, when you when you ask, I mean that's the microcomputers and and the whole basis of uh artificial intelligence is just a enormous, enormous amount of binary digits.
SPEAKER_05Is the light on or off? Yeah, a billion trillion times a second, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and that's all it like that is the basis of intelligence, and most people ignore that, so they get trapped into a conversation of is it Republican or Democrat?
SPEAKER_05And uh if you get stuck there, you get stuck there, it's Republican Democrat a billion trillion times a second. It's uh yeah, your processor can only handle one Republican at a time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and if you're not uh um a capitalist, you're obviously a the other thing, communist and you're evil, you know. It's like is communist evil?
SPEAKER_05Well, those all those people who do those things just show them like an image, like a video image of like a street in modern China and watch them just be oh, I know everyone just goes, everyone in America just goes, I didn't know they could like walk around. Like you know, like that's how but that's how like small your your view, you're you've you've got that overton window uh like view of like the world, and like sometimes that's benign, sometimes that's just happens, it's just that the window is this small. That's it. Sometimes you do get the full picture, sometimes you do get the uh the guy is with the knife, but he's running from wolves or whatever. Like, you know, sometimes you do get the full picture, but you don't get the full picture of everything, you don't get the like so oh, is is China a capitalist uh country or a communist country? Well, the answer is yes. Like you know, and I don't know. The only way for you to understand what's happening there is for you to like see that what they're doing and read like their art, you know, read read their books and and watch their movies and stuff to get a vibe for like hey, what is normal for Chinese people, you know, like just as an example, as an example of the what uh what but non-binary thinking, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Uh-huh. Like just they're you know, yeah, a lot of people ignore like they're like, Oh, we don't want to live in an authoritarian uh uh kind uh community. So we're going to let Hal over here take charge because he he's gonna do the things that are are gonna hold authoritarianism back, and the thing he's gonna use to hold authoritarianism back is authoritarianism.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and sug of people got arrested for voicing political opinions, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's like you're you're missing the point, you don't want that type of authoritarianism, but you're willing to give up and give over to this authoritarianism.
SPEAKER_05It's like our authoritarianism has Snickers bars, that's the difference. So does China, China has bench.
SPEAKER_00No, I don't know. It's like at least we have McDonald's. I'm like, have you been to Russia?
SPEAKER_05By the way, like as though like the Chinese would not figure out how to do a McDonald's anyway. Like, yeah, they're just gonna do a knockoff and they have yeah, they have like regular McDonald's, sure, but like if we cut them off from that and they still want a McDonald's, they would just be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Arabic American, something like that.
SPEAKER_05What are you gonna do? Bomb us over McDonald's?
SPEAKER_01Oh, no, I was going back to like the the Chinese have stolen every piece of software that we've ever created. Uh, and they I mean, not accusing them of stealing, but there have been groups inside of China that have found a way to uh reverse engineer everything that they have gotten their hands on to. Just like I was when I was in Israel on the dock, there were people that were selling you know pirated DVDs of every movie that America was producing. And when I went to Spain, there were people that had pirated software, and it's like everywhere you go, there's people that have figured out how to do crime that doesn't really hurt anyone, it just steals a lot of money. Yeah, and you know, it's like I'm not gonna buy that movie anyway, but now that it's a dollar, okay, I'll do that.
SPEAKER_05Everywhere in the world you go, there's a little Game Boy that has every Super Nintendo game ever made on it, and uh and an overly congenial middle-aged uh local uh who will not stop calling you his friend, everywhere.
SPEAKER_01Uh so you know, crime is uh everywhere. There are people, there are hungry people that are moving from place to place to try to find a better way to live. Everywhere, there's it is everywhere you go, there is an enemy, and uh, if you look at someone like an enemy. Uh you're missing the point. Yes, there are the the enemy is the people that are trying to puppet puppeteer everyone else, and that's just everywhere. Like there are people up top, there's people down low, there's people in the middle, there's you know, it's it's the same everywhere, it's just in a different swath of of the rainbow. And uh Indigo uh happened to be the swath in India. It is literally named after India. Uh it's like I think the etymology of the word basically is from India, uh, and uh it is a plant. Uh I think most plants uh can produce some sort of green or brown dyes, and lots of yellow, too, and lots of yellow. Um from bugs and other organic material, we can get reds, but from one plant or one one very small subset of plants, we can get blue.
SPEAKER_04Um and the plants themselves aren't even blue, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they hit it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they did. There's like a process they have to go through to get the blue out of the plant. It's crazy. Huh?
SPEAKER_01Oh, oh, yeah, I I forgot. So uh Aristotle thought it was a mix of black and white, and then in Persia, uh Abin Sinai uh added gray, or he took the gray and said there's also red and green.
SPEAKER_05I like to imagine each of these being accompanied by people like cheering in a stadium.
SPEAKER_01And then uh centuries later, Nasir al-Din Al Tusi uh was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's also yellow and blue in there. So like this is them looking at the rainbow, like a like a prismatic rainbow, yeah. Uh prismatic rainbow of or or basically optics, like um okay, and like and like basically kind of uh seeing more and more radiation in the colors, yes, as time as time would go on. Okay, yeah, and and uh you know, in dye mixing, in painting, in art, in color, just in in vocabulary itself. It was like, oh, you know, it's green. It's like, well, what do you call this thing in between here?
SPEAKER_00Yellow, green, done. There's something here. There's something between the red and the green. What do you what do you want to call that? And they're like, Oh, yellow, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's the part where I'm kind of like, we know that this is a color, sort of instinctually, because like yellow existed, yellow was around. Yeah, it's not like the blue thing was like, oh, blue was kind of rare because like not a lot of things are blue, or like you know, mammals just aren't blue unless they have that kind of oily sheen, maybe. But like, you know, there's this. I'm just trying to think of like you knew that there was the sky, but you you're like, I don't know how to get the sky down onto like a textile format. There's nothing that really maps that. Oh, here's this berry. Now we know, but like yellow is wild because it's like yellow's just around, lots of stuff is yellow. Like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01And they they just kind of went, reddish, it's reddish with with some green, or they might have called it more greenish than yeah, you know, plant life was green, uh, and it's like it's a variation of green because it's attached to the plant, so there you go. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and then came in 1021, bin al-Hatham uh wrote the book of optics, and uh, so that's where we start getting glass and uh other objects involved into seeing, you know, digging in deeper to being able to see, and it's not just our eyeballs are popping us out. Uh and the that book is basically the basis of all things that we know about vision and sight and light and and all things like that. He was Persia before the Muslim takeover, basically. Uh so I I I am terrible with that. I am terrible at when things change. Like for me, France has always been France, and it they always hate the English, and the English always hate there, and English is that island there, but there's a lot of again. That's my binary thinking of you know, it's like Gaul.
SPEAKER_00What the fuck is Gaul?
SPEAKER_01It's like, oh, the Roman Empire was part of was in Spain at one point. No, uh so yeah, it's it's like an ever-evolving, ever-changing swirl of Roman influence uh moving down, and uh even well, even before the Romans got involved, um oh no, no, no, no. Uh so in 1021 he wrote the book. 200 years later, uh, the book is translated into Latin, which then the the Romans start digging into this whole thing. Uh and at that time, you know, they're red cloaked, and then they find purple, and they're like, ooh, here we go. This is special. This is this is the VIP extra. This is the VIP room and set in this is nice. It's like we have we have Rome, which is a bunch of slaves, a bunch of thieves, and and a bunch of Romans, and then here's this VIP section for the people that have red cloaks, and then here inside there, that's you know, the roped off little booth where they're bringing the champagne out to, you know, only five guys get to sit here with the purple cloaks.
SPEAKER_05Um that's so funny that it's like that. The same thing just keeps on happening. I mean, this is like late. This is late. We've already had like Aristotle talking to Euclid about like the fundamental nature of color, and like like thousands of years later, there's these guys going like, yo, what's that new color? That's well, it's mine, obviously. It's mine and you can't have it.
SPEAKER_01Like, see, when I when I say history is not flat, it wasn't hey, the Greeks came along and then the Greeks disappeared, and then the and they moved over to Rome. It's the Greeks went away, and like all that knowledge went away, and then the Romans uncovered like Indiana Jones style. They uncovered a bunch of this stuff and started you know studying it, you know, years, years, centuries later.
SPEAKER_05They started it's like, oh, this guy guess they were working on color. Okay, yeah, it answers these questions.
SPEAKER_01It's like I can say that I just discovered this, and I have a good marketing guy that says I'm the first one to ever think this thought. So no one, no one else has read this book. So here we go.
SPEAKER_04Believe it or not, new colors are still being like discovered. Like just last month, there was a color discovered that some people are calling the greenest green.
SPEAKER_05Uh oh, this is one of those. Okay.
SPEAKER_04It's called um Olo O L O, and it looks not green to me. It looks like uh almost like a blue green with some white mixed in. But um, yeah, it was discovered April 18th, 2025. So that's very recent. I don't know why they're talking about it now because I just read an article about it the other day.
SPEAKER_05It feels very like uh the whenever the the pinkest pink or the vanta black, you know, type of well, it's this isn't this isn't artist created, this is scientist created.
SPEAKER_04They discovered it with something called the Oz laser. I don't know um all of the detail, but it can't be captured with a camera.
SPEAKER_05Uh so isn't that convenient, scientists? Well, you know, that's interesting though.
SPEAKER_04I've um when since we moved up here, we have a lot of flowers and we have we have a lot of stuff in the yard, and I take pictures of them and it doesn't it doesn't do it justice. So I I can understand this not being able to be captured by a camera. Like there's colors out there that a camera can't get, and I I have proof of that every day now.
SPEAKER_05Oh well, I mean like you try to take it, try to take a picture of the moon, and it you just look at it, you're like not even close. Yeah, not even not not even a good try on the moon.
SPEAKER_01Again, that that is the limitation. That's the limitation on the number the number of switches. Like before, like uh when I'm teaching, uh I'm teaching PLC, which is involves counting in binary and all that stuff, and to illustrate it, it's like if you've ever played a Nintendo, the original Nintendo Entertainment System, it had eight bits, which limited it to like 64 colors. And if you had a Windows 3.1, you can remember that you know they had a red and orange, and a yellow and a blue, like there was a very limited palette of you know 16 colors at one point, and that's all we needed too, kids. So and then we get more uh switches turning on. Is the light on? Yes or no? Now we've got 256 colors, and then we advance that, and now we're still limited to you know 1000 XXX, you know, amount of colors.
SPEAKER_05But as we almost covered the entire like uh like SE catalog now, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And now it's it's as we get more switches and more control over what how we can control what produces light coming out of a screen, we could get more colors. Um we can like I'm sure like Jamie Marjorie is an artist in Orlando, and uh we've we've talked about him before, and he will take a picture of the art and post it online, and it's like this is amazing stuff. And we had the very distinct honor of sitting in his driveway uh during the pandemic while he brought out some of the stuff he was working on, and he is he he's one of those people that has extra senses, like he can see stuff that other humans cannot see, and he pulls it out and he creates it and puts it on a canvas and makes like I can look at his painting and I know I'm not seeing what he is seeing, but I can see much more than I've seen before.
SPEAKER_05Like it's it's a dive into a depth that he knows about that you have you can like look at the surface of and go, okay, I think there's a fish down there somewhere. It's but it's nothing compared to like what he's got on the painting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's much more than I've seen before, but I do know that I'm not seeing to the depth and level that he sees.
SPEAKER_05And as an obstacle, he reminds me of like the the like uh sad, uh terrifying uh I think like Ukrainian uh guy who just like do like really spooky like skeletons, but like if they were alien and demon and all this other he was the I think he was the Polish.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we watched a documentary on him. I think I think he was the Polish guy.
SPEAKER_05Uh but he he like he has these things of like even though a lot of his stuff is like black and white, there's this like grasp on like structure, uh-huh. Where it's like you can go, you can like imagine things like it how they are as they recede beyond vision. Is and uh is this is it is it kind of similar with what you're talking about with Jamie? Like that kind of like depth of like I can imagine the other sides of this thing, it's that you've done like such a a deep level of of painting this side of it, yeah. That I understand this as a three-dimensional thing in space, not a painting or a scene.
SPEAKER_01But but with Jane with Jamie's uh yes, in in that tech tactile sense, but also in a color sense. Like I know that he has reached uh uh he has picked out an indigo that I see oh as a certain color, but I know he is seeing it in like he's seeing the Mary Kay shades, yes, shade by shades.
SPEAKER_04I feel he could cut he could probably find that Olo color somewhere and recreate it. I feel like he could see a color in our yard that we can't get our cat camera to capture and like come here and do a painting of it and be like, oh yeah, that's the color it is for real.
SPEAKER_05It's the color, I'm looking at it right now. It's like the color of like a like when you shine a UV light on something green on that glow in the dark. It's the color of glow in the dark, is what it is.
SPEAKER_01Oh like Mountain Dew with like Mountain Dew with uh with a blue black light through it.
SPEAKER_05It's Baja Blast, yes.
SPEAKER_04Oh yes, Baja Blast, yes, yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_05I love that they're just like we can't, and I understand there's probably a depth to this that you when you see it in real life from the Oz laser, it's different. And if but like I looked it up in immediately, I was like, oh yeah, Baja Blast.
SPEAKER_04Like if you go to the Wikipedia article about it too, they call it an imaginary color because you can't see it with the naked human eye, and only five people in the world have seen it, apparently.
SPEAKER_05Well, did they get a pin?
SPEAKER_04They have to give them something special, like a scarf, something like that.
SPEAKER_05It's like I always think about that with like the you know, there's only like eight people in the world who speak Sanskrit. Like, do they know each other? Do they hang out? Like, let's let's get these guys in a room. I know that. Like, how did this happen? Also, how did this happen? Somebody had to teach somebody else, you teach yourself Sanskrit. I don't think.
SPEAKER_04I don't think it's on Duolingo.
SPEAKER_05I don't, I don't believe so.
SPEAKER_04And if so, it would probably suck because I tried to learn Gaelic on Duolingo, and I got to a certain part of it where it just repeated itself and I didn't learn anything more. So I imagine Sanskrit would be like maybe just like one initial lesson that kept repeating.
SPEAKER_05That's all the budget they had. I think is it a written is it? It's recorded. I don't know if it's only written. For some reason, I associate it with being written. Maybe it's not, maybe it's both. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh so Ibn Al Haytham, uh writing the book of optics, uh got as close. I mean, this is 1021. Uh, and he had a huge breakthrough. And then uh what year was that?
SPEAKER_05Uh how many and how many colors are we up to by 1021? Have we already gone through the gamut?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, he they stopped at five there. Newton is the one that put the seven in right.
SPEAKER_04Okay, he added orange and per and uh Newton's the one with OCD.
SPEAKER_01Before there, uh there was another Persian, Kamal Al-Din al-Faris uh Ferris. Uh he basically uh was studying and looking at uh they they're discussing, you know, oh whenever they they finally got to the point where oh the moisture in the air is what's causing the rainbows across the sky. And so he did an experiment where he's in a dark room and uh opens up a tiny window to shine some light through a fishbowl full of water, and he was like, Oh, okay, here's what's actually happening. It's not just the lights bouncing off the water and going through that, it's it's going into the water and refracting and bouncing off the side of you know, it's refracting as it's going in and hitting the back wall of the the raindrop and bouncing, and then it's going through a second time and refracting and spreading even more, and that's what's giving us the rainbow. So all of this knowledge of you know the the Greeks uh being translated into Latin, and then the Persians being translated into Latin, and then uh I guess Newton was I can't remember where Newton was from, but all of that stuff is translated from Latin into whatever he's studying, and he's rich enough and bored enough and smart enough to to start messing around with stuff, and everyone's like, Oh, yeah, there's there's flaws in the the glass, and he's like, No, no, no, no, these Persian fellas figured out it's not that problem. I'm gonna steal this idea and let everyone know about it.
SPEAKER_05No wonder people hate smart people, by the way. He's just like, like, it's like, please, uh just try to survive the winter, and then like this like fop is like, hmm, I wonder what causes the colors to be in the it's just the glass, dude. It's just the glass. Do you have bread or not? You know, and then he's like, no, no, no, no. An old Persian fellow by the name of Ibn Al-Rashid, uh, I believe. It's like, just beat him up. Beat I see Newton up.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Your exposure to knowledge that I was not exposed to does not make you smarter, you shit.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like the other guy's like I don't have to, I guess I don't even have to be here for this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Like uh, so yeah, Newton uh put uh a prism going out and a prism going in. So you know it splits the light and then puts the light back together, and he's like, see, it's it's it's all you know, it's all part of that light. And he actually measured it and said, This little section, you know, this wavelength from here to here is is red and you know, all through orange, yellow, blue, indigo, violet. Here we go.
SPEAKER_05Or oh, yeah, I think he did the uh initial five and then his OCD kicked in, and he was like, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. To be fair though, here's my thing with this indigo indigo thing is uh all of our uh little name badges on this thing are orange, you know, and I know that that is distinct from our little recording badge up there, which is red. So like good on him for going, like, yeah, there is something between yellow and red. But like, there's also like I think on the color wheel, you know, it wraps back around. Obviously, with light, it becomes ultraviolet and infrared at each end of the of the band. But like on the color wheel, you know, blue flows back into red pretty seamlessly through the use of a little guy I like to call purple. Yep. It's like I know purple exists, I'm good. Where who is indigo, man? Like orange is a banger. Good on you, good on you for orange, an all-timer. But I'm just like, he had to do his weird little like everything sevens, like, because of L to me.
SPEAKER_01Like, um uh I I know what I'm about to say is gonna sound idiotic. I I I what I'm about to say is gonna sound completely idiotic because I have uh I mathematically I cannot connect math and music when I was a young child, and right now it's a little bit late in the game, and I'm trying to play catch up, but no one ever put it into mathematical formulas to make it make sense to me because every other child was like, oh bass. So the gearing of teaching music when I was a child was geared away from math and more towards creative, so it never made sense to me. But from uh A to B or from A to C is a full octave or something like that, and then from A to B is like a half-step octave or some some crap like that. Uh the step from red to yellow on the spectrum uh scale that he was using was a full step going oh of like a uh nanometer wavelength or whatever. Okay, yeah, exactly. And so orange was a half step. So then he went to the other end of the scale and said, Oh, here's the end, the other end of the scale. Here's purple, here's blue. Give me a half step. And also and and also to note, uh the at the time it's one of those marketing things where people have changed the definition of blue. At that time, Newton was looking at Cyan, uh, which is a lighter blue, so there was a huge distinction between the blue that he was describing and the purple that was coming out, and a half step in between there was the dark blue, and that's where he that's what he described as indigo, because at the time indigo was a very, very special color.
SPEAKER_05Ah, okay.
SPEAKER_01And uh it's going around where um, yeah, they in India they discovered this plant, and again, this is one of those ones where someone was doing something and it was pure accident, and someone stumbled upon something, and now we have a very strict process to create this thing. But um, because when you grind up the plant that makes indigo, it makes green or yellow, but if you put it underwater and let it soak for a while, it starts creating a blue because it starts to oxy. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04You yeah, you basically have to ferment the leaves to make the indigo.
SPEAKER_01Ferment, that's yeah, yeah. So it's not oh, let me pick this berry and now I rub it on my Clothes and I've got purple. It's literally someone had to stumble upon something at some point, like it has to have been long, long ago.
SPEAKER_05So almost really, if we want to think about it, it's almost more like the rainbow should be like Roigy Civ than Roiggy Biv. It's really more, it's really more of a thing of there was this thing that was blue. Because yeah, like honestly, blue, I think if you think about the different intensities and levels of blue, covers a lot, it covers a lot of the hues. So it makes sense that there would be that they would look at like a dark blue that distinctly isn't purple as a separate color. But I get yeah, I didn't think about like having we should bring back Cyan. Come on, Cyan, make another mist game.
SPEAKER_04Here's something that has broken my brain about the rainbow, and that is in elementary school we learned a song about the colors of the rainbow. And I'm going to embarrassingly sing it for you now because indigo is nowhere in it, but there's another color that is in there that's not in the rainbow. Oh, and the song goes red and yellow and pink and green, purple and orange and blue. You can sing a rainbow, blah, blah, blah. But pink is in there. Pink isn't a rainbow color. Why do they teach me this wrong?
SPEAKER_05Pink. Pink is like pink is like on another like dimension of coloredness that you have to like incorporate, which is uh saturation. So it's like, I don't know, like, yeah, kids. That that also is it, is it's like, well, that's not all the colors. I know that, and I'm five. Like Roigy Biv. No, that's about what about Royi Piv?
SPEAKER_04Specifically, rainbow colors, and like music and science needed to get together and get their shit right because they could have made the words right to make it actual rainbow colors.
SPEAKER_05This is will all be solved by the Vulcan domes that we put our eventual children in.
SPEAKER_01But see, indigo is three syllables and pink is one.
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna try to figure it out. Keep talking.
SPEAKER_01I I think we needed like uh I would like to get someone musically inclined to to redo a bunch of stuff for my electrical classes that I'm teaching, uh, because I think it would like I grew up on schoolhouse rock, and I know things that I a child should not know, but it's embedded in my brain because I listened to those songs over and over, and they were magical. And the people does like the people that did schoolhouse rock and the people that did animaniacs and the people that did uh other educational shows like that could have done real evil stuff. Like, um, for instance, the people that did uh Time Out for Topper who you know got children addicted to cheese with a catchy little tune. Um, you know, it could be used like Jim Henson was a brilliant, brilliant person to discover he didn't do much for his own children, but for the rest of the children of the world, uh he came up with catchy little tunes to teach children all the things that they need to know.
SPEAKER_05And uh yeah, about how I I know the zip codes of where I live and have lived, and also Chicago, Illinois. 60652. Thanks, Scruff McGruff, the crime dog. Thanks for leaving that one in there forever.
SPEAKER_04I know all 50 states because of the song, too. Also, I made it work. I'll sing it to you later, Mickey, if I can remember. Go ahead, make it okay. Hold on now, I gotta do it in my head again. Okay, it's really easy. All you do is you go red, orange, yellow, and digo, purple and green, and blue. That's all seven. Yeah, they could have given me the right colors. They weren't in the order in the sun they gave me. They don't need to be the or in in order in this one.
SPEAKER_05And you know, like, you know, if you're precocious enough to go to raise your little hand and be like, uh, you know, what's what's pink?
SPEAKER_04Oh, I fucking did.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and you know, your teacher would always be like, Well, that's a shade, and then you would just be like, What the fuck?
SPEAKER_04What the what just happened? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05What do you mean it's a shade?
SPEAKER_04My music teacher could not explain it to me and just kept on playing the piano really loud and just tried to drown me out.
SPEAKER_01You socratic little brat. Yeah, I would advocate for Socratic brats to just take over the world and uh and the world's gonna we'd have it would be very uncomfortable for a generation or two, but afterwards we would make such headway if if every little questioning child was allowed to question and bring it up.
SPEAKER_05I do agree, but I also can't help but feel like somewhere on monkeys' paws curling in a closet somewhere. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04One of the things our little group talked about while we were at the Jack White concert uh last weekend was if we were in the gifted program, and do you think that they're tracking everybody that was in the gifted program now? Like they made us do they made us do weird shit in the gifted program. Like our uh one of the things that the other girl that was with us mentioned was chewing up the pink tablets to see like how good you did brushing your teeth. Like, how are we supposed to know if that's really just for our teeth? Like, there's a lot of stuff they could have slipped in on us. We could be being tracked, I'm just saying.
SPEAKER_05It's a pink tablet.
SPEAKER_04It sparked something in my imagination. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I I definitely know that like I know the Navy has my DNA, and uh, I am pretty sure at some point they're going to create uh a super like out of not necessarily my DNA, but there were there were people in my uh department that were uh trapped geniuses, like they were too poor to go to college, so they signed up for this, which was the most advanced version of uh working class uh education for the military, and you know, they sucked our DNA out saying it was for identification in case we blew up and they couldn't find our dog tags. It's like, well, you've used dog tags for 200 years now. Uh it seems like a pretty good system, and then they're like, Yeah, but Vietnam. So, you know, they sold us on the idea that DNA tracking in case, you know, so that they could match our bot our corpses. And I'm like, well, that's kind of you know what? If I'm a corpse, just throw me over. I sh whatever. You know, my pay my mom was just gonna, you know, she'll just turn me into ashes anyway.
SPEAKER_05We need we need the data of which genes will survive the wars. Um I'm every bad guy in a sci-fi movie from the 80s.
SPEAKER_01So they're definitely gonna and and most of the people that were in the nuclear program for the Navy were most likely gifted children, unless they were too uh uh back then.
SPEAKER_05They called you funny, I think.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05He's a little odd.
SPEAKER_01Uh don't mind him, he's a little weird. I mean, there were a few disciplinary problems, but generally speaking, we were a bunch of odd fellas that could figure stuff out, and and there's there's definitely a mad genius in a navy in a in a military lab somewhere that's like, oh, take a little bit of this guy, and take a little bit of this guy, take a navy shield and mix him with a new guy, and he'll be a really smart, tough guy.
SPEAKER_04And um now I want to see a cartoon comic book guy for those simple. I want to see a cartoon superhero show that's called called Oddfellows Guys Who Figure Stuff Out, and that guy's obviously the star.
SPEAKER_01Um, so yeah, the some weirdos over in India figured out that they could ferment these weeds in big uh cement uh wells that they created, and over time they created a dye for that was amazing in all everything that I've read about indigo dye. It it it does so many amazing things, like it bonds to cloth in ways that no other dye will bond.
SPEAKER_04Um I I uh did a little bit of I don't know if this is something you're gonna touch on, and if so, I apologize.
SPEAKER_07Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04But uh, I did I did a little bit of research about indigo and cloth and why that they dyed the police uniforms like that color, because that kind of ties into Julio Torres a little bit because he thinks uh all authority figures are navy blue, which is indigo-y. But um, the reason that they did that is because of how color fast it is, it doesn't run in the rain like a bunch of the older dyes did, and I think that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it bonds to the mustard stains better.
SPEAKER_04Oh, and then better for jelly donut squirts.
SPEAKER_01The color uh well, much later, uh it's used for denim jeans because of it hiding, having the ability to hide uh stains and and whatnot. And on top of that, the way it bonded to cotton and other fabrics, it made it softer and less chafy. So, like you if you had the choice between brown jeans and blue jeans, uh they you know, people started buying the brown jeans, and then like, hey, this is causing chafing in areas I don't want it to chafe. Um, but I tried the blue stuff and it was good. So more people started buying the blue stuff, and then because of the sales being much more on the blue side than the brown side, they stopped making the brown jeans. So now blue is the color of blue jeans, and Neil Simon Neil Diamond got a song out of it.
SPEAKER_04I have a a question related to blue jeans coming up that I think we're gonna have my friend Aubrey on. Uh, I'll go ahead and tell you what it is now so you can start thinking about it, but it's not for a long way. Why do blue jeans go with any top, but blue pants don't?
SPEAKER_05I think it's like uh you know how it's not even the dying, it's generally not like completely even. I think that creates like a dazzle camo effect that breaks up the outline of stuff. So you just sort of end up you're like, okay, you're like a just a person kind of shaped thing, and then the top is just like, well, there you go. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. That's interesting. Um that's related. Never thought about that in my life.
SPEAKER_01So uh, like any special thing, um, if it's reserved for the richest of the rich, uh, then the next level of rich get jealous and try to find a way to make it their own. Uh so um enstvement happened in India and in China and and Peru. The oldest uh uh evidence of indigo dye being used was in Peru. So it was like it was such a special color and special and a special plant um that grew like no one in Peru was was talking to anyone in India whenever they created this dye, but it happened in Peru, and it and that's the oldest uh evidence that we've had of it. But it also happened shortly after that in India without anyone from Peru flying over to India and saying, Hey guys, have you checked this out? It just someone saw it, and you know, a bunch of weirdos finding fermented plant life going, Hey, this makes a neat color. Um so the the middle rich people started buying up farms in India and enslaving a bunch of uh Indian workers uh to basically farm the shit out of this plant that would make this die, and then enslave the people making the die so that they could ship it home and make mass, mass profits off of it.
SPEAKER_05Um enslave the ships. It's vertical integration.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But from one end to the other, we've got slaves moving this stuff all over the world. What do you do?
SPEAKER_05I own the color blue, basically. I own blue, you know that color, that's mine.
SPEAKER_01And then um they tried using it for paint and it didn't quite work well.
SPEAKER_04Uh and um, I during the dyeing process, when you like put a white thing into the dye and pull it out, immediately it's like a green color, it's not blue, it doesn't turn blue until it gets exposed to the oxygen longer. So it's such a weird, like it's I imagine that it looked like magic to them back then. Like it had to be a magical dye.
SPEAKER_01And if you were one of the people that can control that, then you became a master. And uh part of the the thing that uh we watched a documentary on it, and part of the thing is everything about the process is a very d is a very close held secret, and it's a dying breed of people that actually know of it because of the synthetic dye that comes out later. Um but they couldn't make it into paint, so they found caves in Afghanistan, and uh they found this rock azure's lapis something or other. Ah, lazuli.
SPEAKER_04Lapis lazuli, yeah.
SPEAKER_01They found that they could take the rock and crush it and then mix it with some oil and make some paint. And because it was so expensive and so special, they reserved it for very few paintings, and uh most of it was religious. So if you ever see a painting of Mary with her shawl and her blue, like she's got like a blue uh cloak almost cloak on. That blue represents the special, like it was reserved for paintings of Mary because she was so special.
SPEAKER_05Uh it was the stone set in Zeus's shield, I believe. His shield was made out of lapis lazuli.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like it was that special to them, and also blue was like, I guess, so rare that like they were like, This is Zeus's, like, first of all, Sky Guys kind of and uh because the rock was so special and they wanted more of it, because if you if someone else has it and you don't, you want to get it, and if you can get it, then you want to be able to sell it, so they enslaved a bunch of Afghanistan people and dang it again in order to mine this rock. Uh and it was so it was so um mystical that uh we talked about the Dutch painter Vermeer. Uh he painted he was trying to uh create his own style basically. So he bought a crap load of this stuff. Uh so much so that it bankrupted his family and put him in large amounts of debt for the rest of his life.
SPEAKER_05Uh but like that that tweet that's like uh like food, $100, gas, $600, rent, $1,200. Uh like blue die, $13,526. Please help my family is starving. He's like the guy that inspired that, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, absolutely. Uh yeah, and he if you if you're on familiar.
SPEAKER_05What was it? The die? He bought the die? He bought the rock.
SPEAKER_01The rock. Well, he bought the paint made from the rock from such quanties that he bankrupted him and his family.
SPEAKER_05Jesus.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but one of his paintings is so well known that there's like a different version of it on a giant building here in Detroit. Like it's a he he didn't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the the the story of the girl with the pearl earrings. Uh, he used a lot of blue paint. Uh, and it was such a special painting in Dutch history that um there was some gentleman in the Dutch court that purchased it, it was like 24 uh the equivalent of 24 euros today, and he bought it because it was banged up and he didn't want someone else to come grab it and take it away from the Netherlands. And when the Nazis invaded it, that was one of the paintings they hid underneath uh the museum in order to save it and preserve it. And in 1994, they cleaned up the painting, and then like in 2000 or something like that, Scarlett Johansson made an entire movie about it. So uh, but yeah, he did a whole crap load of other paintings using this blue rock paint uh because he just wanted the indigo color to to happen.
SPEAKER_05Well, he'd he had better. Yeah, I want a painting that's nothing but that. You better fucking use all of it.
SPEAKER_04It's not even the biggest part of the painting. The painting is mostly like a yellow goldy color. There's just like one band across her forehead that is the the blue.
SPEAKER_05Great band. No notes on the band, you know. Uh, but just very kind of funny to look at the band, her hair band, and be like, yeah, that bankrupted a family.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That was that caused that caused marital issues, very likely.
SPEAKER_01And uh another uh press agent for the color indigo itself was Charles Linnaeus. Uh he is a Swedish botanist, ecologist, and physician. He is known as the father of taxonomy taxonomy. Okay is the one that uh named the indigo. Oh, what was the bird that we looked at, Jackie? I wrote everything but that.
SPEAKER_04And I wanted to say this indigo bunting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the indigo bunting, because uh the bunting of the bird, like the the chest area was a was the purest of indigos, and they would fluff it out trying to attract women. And oh my god, some of the like the buntings and and some of these birds uh doing their little dance and stuff. I I've never been a fan of nature shows, but watching a bird clean up its air, its dance floor so that it could do its little uh sexy dance for the ladies.
SPEAKER_04I I I don't want to keep up bringing Jamie Marjorie, but I was gonna say the dancing the dancing bird in real life video.
SPEAKER_05Uh really well uh I wish I remembered which episode of Off the Air that was, but if you ever do want to see it, and also our friend Alex Luchin is in that video, friend of the program, and he doesn't even know Graham it.
SPEAKER_01But uh uh Carl Carl Linnaeus uh had a little bit of juice because he uh accidentally pop he he did he did good across the board, like he was a good uh agent for for certain things. He's the one that uh popularized the metric system. Like before um uh Anders Celsius uh was like, oh, here we go. Uh zero is where we're boiling water and in a hundred degrees Celsius, uh we're measuring how cold things get. At a hundred degrees Celsius, it's gonna freeze. And uh uh Linnaeus was was using a thermometer to deal with some plants or whatever, and he's like, This makes no sense at all. As the as the as the markers go up, my plants freeze. So he called up a place and said, here, use this scale, but reverse it. I want water boiling at 100 and freezing at zero, and and we'll try this.
SPEAKER_05Oh, he was uh he was the first proponent of user-friendly uh interfaces. That's really what he was.
SPEAKER_01Uh so a bunch of his friends coming out checking out his plants, or like, yo, Carl, what what what's this thing here? And he's like, Oh, yeah, it's my new thermometer, it's a Celsius. And they're like, wait, no, Celsius goes the other way around. He's like, No, no, no, no. This is the new Celsius, this is the new way we're doing it. And a bunch of uh a bunch of the uh scientists of the era was like, Yeah, that makes so much sense. That that is so much better than Anders thing, whatever the hell he was thinking. And then the French Revolution came across, and they were like, Yes, this new Celsius thing, that's that is the official temperature of France. And since we're doing this zero to one hundred thing, we're just we'll carry it through. Uh, no more imperial stuff, we're just gonna do the zero to hundred thing all over the place.
SPEAKER_05Let's upside down Celsius is a tool of the bourgeoisie.
SPEAKER_01Uh so so you know, having him uh discuss it, uh or having him push the indigo uh bunting bird, uh push the indigo blur brand a little bit further into uh the stratosphere, especially. Uh so yeah, we've we've gotten the Afghan mines producing the Lapish Losure uh rock, we've got the Indians, the uh the India Indians, the Peruvian Indians, and the uh uh I believe in China and Japan and all over the tropical zone of the world creating this plant or growing this plant. And in India, that was the British came in. And locked a bunch of stuff down. They had ordered, because they were using it so much for naval and other officer or other official military things, they ordered the farmers to dedicate 15% of the land that any of the farmers owned to growing this plant so that they can make massive and massive amounts of dye. And then a whole bunch of enslavement and a bunch of forced deals. And then one day Gandhi is walking around India and one of the farmers comes up and says, Hey Gandhi, let me talk at you for a minute. From this uh dye in order to get the land back so that we could grow food so that we could eat, because the all the rest of the farmland is going to food that they're selling off, and the 15% of the land that we have to use for ourselves, they made us sign papers to grow this dye plant. So there's nothing left for us to food, and we want to food because we're hungry.
SPEAKER_05I me sure would like to food if that's okay with you.
SPEAKER_01Gonnie's like, What's the big deal? Just don't eat.
SPEAKER_05Uh okay, I did not expect that. No, no, no. That's what that guy said. That guy said it was you know, there were a lot of answers. I was I was expecting to come out your mouth than that was the last one. That was the last one that I could think of.
SPEAKER_01Uh, no, no, no. Uh so Ghani took on their case and uh visited a couple farms, and he's like, Oh, this is this is total bullshit. And um I like this is the birth of non-violent um protest, protest. Uh they wanted to they arrested him uh for getting involved, and then they're like, Well, let's just let him go and send him on his way and get him out of here. He's like, Oh no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no. You have a law. I broke the law. I must go through the court system and be tried for breaking this law. You must try me instead of letting me go. And he refused to just walk away. And be based on those uh uh court hearings, it got a lot of attention and essentially caught in instead of them trying him, he basically turned it back on the the new British owners of the land and said, Hey, this is what you guys have done. Is this right? And helped change the entire indigo uh die system uh based on those court hearings because he's just this is British occupied India, which is is that is that what they call the Raj?
SPEAKER_05Yes, yes, the the the sort of like puppet leaders that they put in charge that the British put in charge while they were you know they had to go back and change their lace uh socks, so they left like kind of a uh a worm tongue type Indian in charge. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they also uh this leads into uh the British uh policy of I only know how courts work through Lord of the Rings, medieval courts. Uh but this also the uh the because of the uprising, you know, it started to become an uprising, is where uh Britain uh the British uh developed a new style called partitioning, where they split a country in half just to make it more manageable, which is where we ended up getting Pakistan versus India. Oh and then later on we they did it in Israel and separated out Israel and Gaza and Pakistan.
SPEAKER_05And as we know, that worked out just fine, and it's been good ever since they did that, and great job, everybody, on that.
SPEAKER_01Then coming up to the plate is a company called BASF. It is something it's a German conglomeration of words, but uh, if you lived in the 80s, uh BASF uh didn't make things, they just made things better, uh, was the tagline. Uh and a lot of videotapes at the time in the 80s were BASF.
SPEAKER_04That's that's the first thing I thought of.
SPEAKER_01Uh they got started and they created uh some map physical tapes themselves.
SPEAKER_05That they they made those, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, they made the technology and then they bought the company and slapped their name on it. Oh, okay. Gotcha. If you wanted a high quality video tape, it was BASF was the top notch. Uh but here's the the thing is uh they created synthetic uh a way to create a synthetic indigo die. And they paired up with Levi Strauss and made the dye uh into you know, they basically blue jeans are starting to sell all over America and all over the world, and they're making bank, which then crashes the need for uh the homegrown India um indigo, uh which then makes that 15% that they were, you know, the the farmers were actually making the the deals that they were trapped into was oh, you can make some money off of this indigo to help pay off this thing, and uh because the demand for uh natural indigo went away, the farmers were trying to make the Indians pay for the loss of their profits because now everyone's buying synthetic ink or synthetic dye. So that was part of the the whole uh court thing was like you're demanding payment for a profit that you're not making. It's you're trying to get the the poor Indian farmers to make up for your losses. This is not a good contract at all. Um uh and then um uh again again, World War II and Nazis and BASF being a German company uh used forced labor, also known as Steving. Um Stevery. Stevery. Uh some of the chemicals used to eliminate an uh entire type of people was you know inventions uh from the BASF company.
SPEAKER_05Um they have since been we do videotapes and other things as well.
SPEAKER_03Classic Germans.
SPEAKER_01And at a time uh post-World War II at a time where people were trying really, really hard to hold people accountable for atrocious behavior or you know, human atrocities, uh war crimes and stuff. 24 of the uh executives at BAS BASF were brought to trial and found guilty and put in jail and then released uh six months later so that they could go back to work inventing other stuff. So, you know, it's kind of like that, you know, whenever they were like, hey, the scientist that created missiles that bombed the shit out of England, yeah, we'll go ahead and put them in charge of NASA because hey, hey, no genocide, pal, okay?
SPEAKER_05All right, don't let me catch you, don't let me see you back in here for genocide, or I'm gonna be real mad.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so you know, there's uh so between uh you know a botanist and a Newton and German uh German industry and know-how and all this other stuff, you know, we get a lot of people pushing the agenda of indigo, and uh it it is still it is it's blue, it is it's navy blue, essentially, is what it is. Uh we've we've dialed it out.
SPEAKER_05Now there are things the Greenland Iceland situation where it's like you know, somewhere along the line these wires kind of got crossed, and maybe what we know of as blue is is what indigo is, and that's where that slipped in. It was it's just that, like, yeah, I think Newton is looking at a much brighter blue and going, all right, well, that's blue, uh and here's the here's the sixth of seven notes, the indigo. Uh, I think that's probably what we're looking at.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah, we end up with uh the question is is uh one that has to reach deep into history and pull out a lot of stuff because we're not dealing with what we were dealing with then. It's kind of like new and improved. Everyone you slap on new and improved, and or warning, you slap enough warning signs, it becomes meaningless, and and it's just like noise instead of actual a message, and indigo has been devalued so much that they're actually there's movements trying to remove it from the the rainbow, and it's like no Pluto situation. Yeah, we should be removed, like if anything, we should be adding more colors to the rainbow because there are more colors to the rainbow.
SPEAKER_05That's my whole thing, actually. And honestly, we can wrote Pluto in on that as well, where it's like, what a dumb thing for them to do. And it's like, I almost feel like they do like the Pluto thing almost seemed like it was like, does science need money? And they like need like a controversy to kick up so that like people can care about it again? Because people took, first of all, they took the the Pluto demotion very per like more personally than I think scientists ever anticipated, because they're like, Well, this is my job, it's my job to decide what a planet is and isn't. We've really come to the conclusion that it's not. And people, people got up out of their beds, they got on their computers, they made their voices known about how offensive it was that Pluto was not a planet anymore. This idea that they will never physically you can't see Pluto in the night sky, like it's not a it's not gonna affect you, but they got real mad about it. And it's like it's almost like this, like uh speaking of PR, it's almost like a stunt. It's like a stunt to get people to go, okay. Well, hey, donate to NASA or donate to you know SETI or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Uh but man, like it comes down, and it's one of those things where it's like I was whenever I went into quality assurance, I had there was a lot of pushback because people were like, Well, this is the way we always did it, and it's like, well, the way you always did it is wrong now because there's new laws in place that says what you we can't do that no more, like it it simply is things change, words change. Like, I I watched an argument. Uh I follow Merriam Webster's on on one of the social medias.
SPEAKER_05Oh, he wants some nerd fights, you know.
SPEAKER_01And like people are like, uh uh they're arguing uh with uh Miriam Webster. It's like, what are you talking about? Who what's your source? And it's like us, us. We're literally the source on Word Social Media Manager for the dictionary company. Like it look it up, it's there.
SPEAKER_05And by the way, we are right next to the door to Roger, so like don't even get me started on thesauruses.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you want me to say it in another way? I'll just go get Roger over here.
SPEAKER_05Let me roll with my boy Roger on this one.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but like someone was arguing that the meanings of words don't change. It's like, yeah, yeah, they do, they do. Uh, so we're in a game, we're in a we're in a flux situation.
SPEAKER_05Start using the word ris in front of someone that thinks words don't change and watch how fast they were like, oh, someone, you know.
SPEAKER_04I think it I think it might have been you, Christian, but someone recently told me that one of my favorite words to use to mean like something's a fun time, but not too deep. Uh Bop is what I call that. Like if this movie was a bop, means that it's somebody that sleeps around. Like, I do not know.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I thought it was someone who was hot. I thought Bop was like you were hot. I'll go with that.
SPEAKER_04I'll go with someone being hot being a bop.
SPEAKER_05I'm sure maybe there's a way you could spin that into you know, a thought type of category or or something, some kind of slang like that. But like I mean, especially now that I work at like a dental lab with adults that are only aging forwards. Uh I'm not we're not getting like an influx of a new teen every you know six months so that I can learn how slang is like I am gonna fall off the wagon. Like it is hard.
SPEAKER_04If I get a youth in my area, I ask them what words they're saying. I used to ask my daughter, you know, like once a quarter to keep me up on whatever slang, but she's not a youth anymore. I gotta find new youths. Now I have a couple of twins that I ask pretty regularly.
SPEAKER_05I I heard the six seven thing and I I got real scared because I was just like, ah, it's because I think like six seven is like a it's like a nihilistic phrase. It like inherently doesn't mean anything. It means like, eh, whatever. It literally means I think whatever. And also it's like cryptic enough that it pisses off uh what I would call, you're like in the way that there are true bugs, true adults, which when you reach 37 uh and above, is like that's when like your ears just sort of close off to the idea of of slang, I think, in a major way. Nothing. And like not, but like there's a there's a point at which you like I said, you slip off the wagon. It's longer for some of us, but uh, but like we're we're not even like you're seeking it out.
SPEAKER_04Yes, I actively seek it out. I know.
SPEAKER_05Maybe I don't know what the age of the people you're teaching is, but like I know that I'm now I'm done. I'm what they call cooked, I'm an unk. Uh for sure. You're cooked, unk. And and so like, but the six seven, uh the six seven is like them inventing a slang thing that just like fucks with adults.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's was that's exactly it.
SPEAKER_05And it's it's like the one that's beautiful, but two, I'm an adult. I just wanted to talk. I didn't want to like menace you in any way, you know, my uh friend's cousin at his sister's birthday party or whatever.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_05Sorry. I got I got roasted because uh to as a joke, I sent the full video of something. Like that was the title of you know, the title was the bit we we I was talking about, and the person sent back the first was AT, a former co-worker. And uh he was like, dude, the whole video is crazy. Meaning, meaning like, meaning like, why didn't you send this as like a four-second TikTok clip? You sent the entire two and a half minute video. One of that's that's long.
SPEAKER_04One of my favorite I I I exchange TikToks with uh Mickey's youngest son pretty regularly, and one of my favorite things to do is to send him a very long TikTok that's ridiculous all the way through, like it's worth sending just to see how much of it he makes it through. And he's he's honestly pretty good about it, but he's barely a youth anymore either.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm trying to rage against the dying of my attention span here, and I just I I've never downloaded TikTok. I've known people that have like shown me TikToks and shown me the interface for TikTok, which I'm like, no, uh, but but I I mostly I say no because I know what this is, it's a Christian trap. You're gonna trap me, you're gonna get me on my phone, and you're gonna get me scrolling, and I'm not gonna be able to stop. And I'm just I actually want longer videos. I need a 20, like a five-hour video, exhaustive breakdown on something that someone made. It can be a bunch of videos mashed together, but longer.
SPEAKER_01I can't do yeah, I I I'm just wondering what happened to the good old 1950s three, three, three and a half minutes. Like you know, they they they were like songs are three and a half minutes because that's that's where we sit, and then you know, the YouTube videos of three and a half minutes were like right there. It's like all right, perfect to share in a group, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Epic Rap Battles, yes, yes, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_01And then it's like uh you know, then I saw us TikToks of like 10 second versions of that, and I'm like, you're missing all of it.
SPEAKER_04Like, you yes, that one line is a banger, but you're missing the whole context of how we got there, and you know, and I I literally sent Logan a 10-minute TikTok video the other day that was just like this group of boys who made like really good production value, 10-minute movie of them just getting into increasingly ridiculous, surreal situations, and it's honestly a masterpiece. Like, there's some good work being done that's not getting seen by people, and it makes me very sad.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it it the the nature, and I think this like you can put this in any episode of ours that we've done, but it's like the nature of of like humans to sort of like take like oh, what do you like? Images, all right, cool. Well, we're gonna make moving images, you know, and that's gonna be like what everybody's now nobody can look at a still image. Thanks. Like, nobody's gonna ever enjoy that again. And like now, it's like, what do you like? Videos? Cool. Here's like a four and a half second video of just the thing, just the focal point.
SPEAKER_00It's like I have to watch 20 minutes of ads just to get to your four-second video. No, thank you. I don't want ads, yeah.
SPEAKER_04YouTube shorts piss me off.
SPEAKER_01But I do uh I did earn credit, I guess, uh the other day. Uh something came up, and it's like, oh, the measurements like six or seven, and uh the kid like six, seven, and I was like, hey, and they're like, oh he's cool. I don't know. I just I've heard it before.
SPEAKER_04Um Mickey, when you're doing your research on indigo, did you uncover the ties to South Carolina?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, I did not. I stopped.
SPEAKER_05Uh how many how many times did you have to type minus girls into the stuff?
SPEAKER_01Oh, speaking of which, yeah, uh bringing back the dictionary, uh, the indigo girls just flipped through the book, pointed at a word, and said, Oh, that sounds neat. Okay, that's how they got their name.
SPEAKER_05I like that a lot. That's a great, that's a great genesis for a name. Don't think about it too much.
SPEAKER_04Genesis. I see what you did there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Oh, sorry. I'm not uh I'm not familiar. Is that a is that like an album of theirs?
SPEAKER_04No, it's just another band, right? That's a band, right? No, that's Phil Collins's band.
SPEAKER_01Didn't know if he was I'm surprised someone hasn't came up with a band called Phil Collins's band. Just because we're in that uh you know, pop will eat itself uh era of Capitol.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the band, the show, the movie, or whatever.
SPEAKER_04I gotta see that. I heard that was so good.
SPEAKER_01Well, like the Eagles of Death Metal.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Yes, fantastic name.
SPEAKER_01Uh, you're you're Spotify Jackie?
SPEAKER_04Thinks I love Phil Collins for some reason. Every week on my release radar, there's a Phil Collins song. I couldn't the only time I listen to Phil Collins is when it's on my release radar, so I don't know why it thinks I love him.
SPEAKER_05Or when I'm when I'm watching the movie Tarzan. I mean, you know, it was mic to drums or something else.
SPEAKER_01What about South Carolina?
SPEAKER_04So um back in in the 18th century, um plantations in South Carolina were one of the biggest providers of indigo dye in the world, like back when the the uh British uh royalty folks were into using it. Yeah, um there's a whole book written about it called Red, White, and Black Make Blue about like the whole that whole time period. Um, and it sounds really interesting because she's got it uh organized thematically rather than chronologically, which really works well for my brain, like like being uh pushed together with like like uh the first chapter is analyzing a London's dyer shop to like exploring the connections between conquest and trade that sh that like basically shaped British industrialization. So I don't know, it sounds neat. South Carolina's involved. That's that's it. I didn't do a lot of research. I just recently found out about it like five minutes ago.
SPEAKER_05Also, what I'm learning is like just about everything is like, is it a product? Is it in front of you? I got bad news for how it was made. I got some real bad news, like yeah, this wire, this microphone, this computer.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, being the curious person that I am and digging in. Uh like at one point, I was just completely oblivious and ignorant, and just going about doing my thing and in excited about uh technology and whatnot, and then having my job shipped over to uh the far east. Uh Started questioning things and and where who's making this and what are the conditions of the people making it. It's like, okay, I'm not getting paid that much. I'm getting paid a good salary, but in the grand scheme of things, it's fairly cheap for to for my labor. So for them to ship it overseas, what are they paying those people? And those people are getting paid a lot less. And and it's like, okay, so where is the money going? It's not going back into anything else, other than a few people owning profits, and then it slowly pushes me. It's like there's a huge bubble between me and wanting to participate in any kind of market situation. And I it's like sometimes I'll just for I will forgo buying something that I want simply because I don't want to do the research because it makes me sad. Sometimes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05It's like, oh then it's like you try to talk about it to someone, and then they're like, Well, no, you don't understand it's actually fair because they made the abattoir that all those pigs are walking into. Like, yeah, what you're on that guy's side? That's crazy.
SPEAKER_04Oh, Mickey, I have uh oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04I have a question that I when I was when we were talking, I continually do a research, and one of the things I came across is um that indigo and some of its derivatives are known to be ambipolar organic semiconductors. Period. That's a fact. And then it says they're semiconductors when deposited as a thin film by vacuum evaporation. And what does that all mean?
SPEAKER_01All right. Say the phrase again.
SPEAKER_04Ambipolar organic semiconductors.
SPEAKER_01Organic semiconductor.
SPEAKER_05I'm guessing that means they can go either way, the the ambipolar.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's like using either hand.
SPEAKER_05They they semiconduct in like a non, I guess, in in any direction. There's no specific direction related to like the structure.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so electric flow is is all right. So in copper, uh, there is uh the outer electron the outer shell where the electrons live is called the valid shell. And in the outer shell, it wants to basically reach stasis. And uh like each each level has a different number that it wants. So, like in in hydrogen, it has uh one electron, and the outer shell wants two. Helium is a noble gas, it is stable because it wants two electrons, it's got two electrons, and it's just single uh helium atoms bouncing around. Hydrogen, and so oxygen has an outer shell that is almost full, so it wants to bring in electron, or it wants to bring an electron in. And uh hydrogen is right in the middle because it wants one, it got two, or it wants two, it has one, so it shares those electrons. So you get a bonding, so you get H2O, two hydrogen, one oxygen, because the oxygen needs two electrons. Carbon right down the middle, it wants eight, got four. So it lines up, has one above, one below, and one on either side, and they share. So they're pretending everyone's got eight, and they form a nice tight superbond, and that's where you get charcoal and you get carbon and you get uh diamonds and stuff. The the the crystalline structure of all of that also has to do with reactivity, right?
SPEAKER_05Like if it's if it's stable, it won't react as much.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. So uh when you have a uh so organic material is carbon, and carb in this situation, uh the carbon will allow the flow of positive charge or negative charge, depending on which way it's being uh applied, where where you know depending on what's being what charge is being applied to it, it'll allow it to flow. A semiconductor usually allows flow in one direction because they they take silicone, which is uh doesn't allow electron flow, and they embed it with uh materials that kind of given enough electric charge, those that material will line up and then allow the uh path for electrons to flow or either in or out. Um and in order to create a semiconductor, we used like 10 uh it was like a hundred thousand volts to create a plasma gun and then shoot the plasma gun across the room to embed either phosphorus or arsenic or other materials into silicon in order to line this up, with it being a naturally occurring uh organic material, it's just it's kind of like electricity happens in a lot of different ways. Like if you take a uh a glass rod and rub it on silk, it builds up an electric charge because blue on your head, blue it on your head, it's just the movement of electrons and storing up. So, in certain car in certain organic materials, you're just gonna get an alignment of electrons, and then as soon as you give it a path, the electrons are gonna start to move.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um I could give a big long lecture later on what's the study and dive into it, but it's it almost sounds like though that you could like you could put this as like a very thin layer, yes, it between something, and it would like conduct like maybe like a phone screen or something.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like some kind of touch screen that yeah.
SPEAKER_01And basically you take one, uh like you you process one material and it's got extra electrons, and then you process another material and it's stripped of electrons. So then you put one on top of the other, and the electrons are gonna go want to basically equilibrium. So it's gonna go from where, hey, we have a bunch of electrons sitting here in this layer of organic material, dropping it down to this other layer of organic material, which is devoid of electrons. So then you start getting that electron flow, and then you create you basically control the gap in between on you know, in one form or another, and that's how you allow stuff to flow.
SPEAKER_05Okay, and that's how your phone works.
SPEAKER_04So all right. I have like a question and a little not really a quiz, but kind of like a fun thing.
SPEAKER_07Uh huh.
SPEAKER_04What year do you think indigo was added to the Crayola crayon box?
SPEAKER_01Um, let me see. Before it was eight, so that would be six colors and black and white crayon.
SPEAKER_05So 1978. Good guess.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. It could go either way. Uh, because I know at one point they started getting really weird and adding a bunch of stuff.
SPEAKER_05Uh I'm a 64 color box man myself, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I don't know. I'd say 98.
SPEAKER_04Oh, you are off by one year, 1999.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's late.
SPEAKER_04Okay, now I'm gonna tell you like eight box, sixteen box, twenty-four, all, all, all, and you tell me if indigo is in it, yes or no. Eight crayon box, yes or no?
SPEAKER_01No way. I'd say no.
SPEAKER_04Okay. 16 box.
SPEAKER_05I think it's still gonna leave it out.
SPEAKER_04Okay, Christian's a no.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_04You're right, it is a no. 24 box.
SPEAKER_05I feel like this is where you start to get your primo. I'm gonna say yes.
SPEAKER_04Did you say no, Mickey?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say no on that one.
SPEAKER_04Yes, 24.
SPEAKER_01Oh.
SPEAKER_0432. Not necessarily, not necessarily. I'm gonna say they forgot. This is fucking up my brain. Not necessarily. 32, yes or no?
SPEAKER_01No. I'm saying on your trickery.
SPEAKER_04Yes, 32, yes. Come on. 48, yes or no. Oh, 48, fuck.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna stay with no.
SPEAKER_05I'm gonna say what happened to indigo and they put it back in.
SPEAKER_04Uh 48 is a yes. 64, yes or no.
SPEAKER_0564 is sponsored by Mary Kay, so I'm thinking that instead of indigo, it was some other thing.
SPEAKER_01I'm holding my ground with a no.
SPEAKER_04It is a no. 64 is a no.
SPEAKER_01Wild.
SPEAKER_04Why would you think it out of the 64? Yeah, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_05I get I bet you that they were having the argument version of this episode of the podcast. Yeah, is what was happening.
SPEAKER_04It's like 24 to 48, yes. 64, no, 96 and 120, yes.
SPEAKER_05Well, at 96, you gotta, you're like, what else do we have? I've got pink and hot pink, you know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, if we're gonna put four, it's green, and now we have to include indigo.
SPEAKER_05Vanta black. Did a Vanta Black crayon.
SPEAKER_04There's a color called Bluetiful, and like I don't know if I approve of that.
SPEAKER_01Well, that was when they started that was the internet era of Crayola where they were 2017, yeah. Yeah, allowing people to send names.
SPEAKER_05I really loved opening that the those bigger boxes of crayons and going like red, orange. Okay, I see what they're doing here, and then you would see orange red, and you'd be like, Oh whoa, there's way more colors than I thought.
SPEAKER_01The way my brain operates, I hated crayons because I knew I loved a brand new box of crayons, but I knew that as soon as it touched paper, something bad was gonna happen. Either, either the the uh sweaty Bobby that was sitting next to me would grab it and like you know when they grab it with their fist and they colour instead of holding it like any kind of instrument, yeah, and they would use it all up, and you'd have to peel, and it was just down to nubs everywhere.
SPEAKER_05Or they did not think about the extended use, those crayons are so long for how much they're gonna actually be able to be used. Oh, yeah. It's not like you could you couldn't you could sharpen them, but I think you needed like a special sharpener because they're made of fucking wax.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, ruin a regular pencil sharpener, no one else would be able to use it to sharpen pencils or crayons.
SPEAKER_01So back in our day, they did have them. They we did like there were the boxes of 96 came with the sharpener at the bottom.
SPEAKER_05Uh, one of y'all like threw it up in the air once and hit another kid, and then they took those out of the boxes or something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, probably.
SPEAKER_05As always happens in 1994.
SPEAKER_04Crayola made magic scent crayons, and that sounds like a nightmare to me because scented markers, you got the caps. Crayons, you just got a box of smells that you open up. That's awful.
SPEAKER_05You know what's really, really funny about that is that that is just candles. That's all that is. You're just drawing with candles at that point. That's I like to think that there's the there's like the rooms, and it's the cradle of crayons in one room, and then the the candles in the other, and there's a horrible mix-up. And they're like, whatever, we're just gonna roll with it.
SPEAKER_04The color, the color apricot smells like lumber instead of smelling like the fruit it's named after.
SPEAKER_05What if they all smell like lumber? That's the hack. They actually just all smell like wax from a factory.
SPEAKER_04White smells like baby powder, and black smells like either licorice or leather jacket. This sounds like a nightmare box of crayons.
SPEAKER_05They just rubbed whatever they had on them against the baby.
SPEAKER_04Violet smells like grape instead of violets. Like, what is wrong with people? Lilac smells like wait, no, wisteria smells like lilac. This is madness, and I don't like it. It is really bothering me.
SPEAKER_05This is how they discovered autism with the magic smell crayons.
SPEAKER_04No, there's another set called the color and smell crayons where brick red smells like earthworms.
SPEAKER_03Orange smells like grandma's perfume. Uh what? This is a nightmare.
unknownBlack.
SPEAKER_03You know, all your favorite kid scents.
SPEAKER_04Jungle green smells like koala tree. What the fuck is a koala tree?
SPEAKER_05Let's go. Also, just put eucalyptus in it, like koala tree. Oh sorry, kids aren't ready to learn about eucalyptus.
SPEAKER_04The dandelion smells like watch the dog. Who wants to smell watch the dog?
SPEAKER_05It's like soap with like just the merest hint of smelly animal. Just the just the after notes. This is blowing my mind. No, I didn't know it was this bad over in the scented crayons.
SPEAKER_04I'm afraid like I'm still scrolling. I'm afraid there's gonna be more scented crayons.
SPEAKER_05Did they discontinue these? Because they by by the justice of God almighty, they they should have.
SPEAKER_04It looks like yes.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_04Yo, here's another one. Silly scents crayons.
SPEAKER_05Okay, at least this is silly though. They did warn you.
SPEAKER_04Well, what's so silly about gray smelling like mother's tomb? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_05That's a little sillier than I was ready for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's MA Spider-Man 400.
SPEAKER_04What's so silly about yellow green smelling like alien armpit?
SPEAKER_05Okay, that at least.
SPEAKER_04That's that one.
SPEAKER_05I'm like, okay, now we're back on like Nickelodeon's gack level of stuff. Mother's tomb is a bit much.
SPEAKER_04I cannot.
SPEAKER_01It mother's tomb as is it for real?
SPEAKER_04Okay, that's the end of the crayon list. I'm closing that tab forever.
SPEAKER_01I I will point out that there is a uh a painter in the United States named Steve Bushimi, not the actor, who has uh paintings that are working from deep indigo grounds. He removes pigment rather than building it up, allowing figures to slowly emerge through airbrushed acrylic and minimal brush work.
SPEAKER_05So subtractive painting. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Uh so we make that connection. We've been through Rome. Uh, we added Gandhi to our list, uh, more Stevery, uh, added some Afghans. Uh we've been through a whole lot of Romans, we added some Greek stuff, but uh yeah, indigo uh has had several proponents over the years, and um, you know, it's had a lot of people pushing its way up, and now they're it is fighting a deluge of anti-Indigo folk. My suggestion would be to increase and add more to the rainbow uh instead of trying to have a VIP section for colors. Because, you know, if you if you discriminate against colors, it's just going to end up bad uh for everybody.
SPEAKER_05Agree. Well, it's it's wild because there were parts of this where what you what it sounded like you were describing was like three turns of the game civilization. Uh-huh. And it was like, oh, this was like people's like basically indentured servitude reality for like hundreds of years. And you're like, I'm sorry, it was over what? The little like the little like die pot, the little ink pot that on the map, on the hex map. That's what it was. That's what I was doing in the video game civilization. Like, oh no. I've been doing this.
SPEAKER_04Indigo, indigo is also how Blackbeard kept his beard black.
SPEAKER_03Oh, fellas.
SPEAKER_01Also from South Carolina.
SPEAKER_04Oh wow.
SPEAKER_01Man. All right. So I I think we I think we covered the question.
SPEAKER_05I think we nailed it.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't just a who, it was whom's.
SPEAKER_05It was whom's and it was it was also a bit of the old uh oh, we have a new word for this thing. Yeah, we Shakespeare came along, and we've we now we know how to describe it.
SPEAKER_04Also, one one more fun fact indigo represents your third eye chakra in your brain. So that's interesting to me, too.
SPEAKER_01I can see that. It is the color of heaven.
SPEAKER_05They got their own uh lanterns, colored colored lanterns in the DC universe. So like I said, you know, they have they keep on, they have staying power. Indigo has staying power.
SPEAKER_04I'm on team indigo.
SPEAKER_01All right. If you have a question, uh contact Jackie. Uh you can email her, Jackie at valleyofo.com. That's me.
SPEAKER_04It's Jackie with an I, no E.
SPEAKER_01J A C K I at symbolvalleyofo.com. Yes. And you can while you're there, you can sign up to get a monthly subscription of Lollipops sent straight to your front door with a little bit of art added in. Uh if you have uh curiosities, questions, if you want to sit in and talk with us about something you're passionate about, let us know. We'll uh we'll consider it. You know, we're not just gonna let any idiot in. Um, I mean, you know, the bar is pretty low, but you know, we're not gonna let every idiot in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, if that's really important.
SPEAKER_04We're selective about the idiots we invite in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's and we will be back next week. Uh, we're gonna answer another question.
SPEAKER_04Do you want to know what it is? It's a long one.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04How much do you miss looking through the TV guide and reading it cover to cover and doing the puzzles and highlighting things? Is there anything comparable to that today?
SPEAKER_05This is gonna be a talking.
SPEAKER_04I fucking love the TV guide. I'm so excited.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for joining us on this journey, and we will be back with another journey next week.
SPEAKER_04Okay, bye.
SPEAKER_01No, it was nothing.
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